Talk: Drone

The name

Sorry but I had to change the picture. After all, this is the original alien from Giger's own work that spawned a million imitators. The old pic looks like a guy in a rubber suit. "Drone" is fine with me, but I would prefer something that specifies that this is the type of xenomorph encountered by Ripley and the Nostromo crew. I'm really liking Drone (Kaneburster) but I think it might be a tough sell!:)CadmiumX99 04:10, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

wasn't the old picture a still from the first Alien movie?--Zervziel 18:52, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but there's better pix out there.---CadmiumX99 19:29, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that "Drone" is the correct name for this xenomorph life stage, since a drone is a male insect and its only objective is reproduction, but this is just my opinion, make a research

XenoFan 20:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

If we go by that reasoning we'd have to get rid of some of the other names on here. Mostly for the Predator weapons (not that I wouldn't mind doing so). Names such as Drones are often given because it describes it being a low level worker in the social strata, doesn't matter if it's textbook definition includes the fact that it's male. Hell, we don't even know if the creatures are asexual unless they become a queen or if they're hermaphroditic creatures, though quite frankly I really don't want to get into that bit of detail.--Zervziel 02:26, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well I have made a theory about, it had biologycal explanation,but it was deleted, you can see in history how did it look.

Now i realised I've made mistake that drones were female.--Xenokrok 19:45 CET, March 27, 2010

Hmm

Drone insects are not low in a hive hierarchy it´s the exact oposite they just eat and mate,these aliens are hard workers. Do you have any discussion for Aliens lifespan? I would like to discuss that too

XenoFan 23:59, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, what? I think you're confusing drones with queens. Drones are the low hardworkers while the queens, eat, mate, and spawn offspring.--Zervziel 02:28, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I agree....I think Xenofan is confusing Drones with Queens...T-888 14:05, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

You may be right about. But the drone's job is to mate with a queen, but it is not a lower class. I think the name should change because even in the avp Extinction game the drone was more like a worker than a drone, as the game said it's job was to builed the hive.- Bob1998

How about "Drone (LV-742)" or even just "Worker" or "Worker (Drone)"?---CadmiumX99 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 03:00, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

No. A Drone in the ant world are male ants that are higher up in "ranking" and mate with the Queen. Same with Bees. See here: http://antark.net/ant-life/the-family/drone-alate-ant/ and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_(bee)

You really don't need to be replying to comments made 4 years ago. Let alone 1. Also remember to sign your posts. Heatlineheard ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 20:57, May 23, 2016 (UTC)

No confusion buddies!

just check.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/Insects-topic/drone_2

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/drone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_(bee)

XenoFan 15:02, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Okay then....well I was wrong... T-888 15:11, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Same here. At least I learned something new.--Zervziel 21:20, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well it is wrong to call "drones" that way now that we all know, but it is widely accepted that xenomorph drones are female and warriors male.Xenokrok 18:38, March 30, 2010 (CET)

xenomorphs except the queen don't have a gender (as far as i and many others know anyway) and just because a lot of fans think something, it doesn't make that true. only the makers of alien films get to say whats what. 86.128.94.112 14:08, December 25, 2010 (UTC)

But shouldn't we clarify this to te community?

XenoFan 19:57, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: Name change, content to Drone (LV-742)

As of now, most of the article is about the Drone from Aliens versus Predator: Extinction anyway. For this article, I propose that we relocate the more general Warrior/Drone speculation for now and concentrate more on the AVP:E Drone from the game, renaming the article to Drone (LV-742) so it sounds more in-universe style. Agree/disagree? :)----CadmiumX99 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 04:59, July 18, 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with your Idea to call the avpE Drone the "LV-741 Drone". The drone in that story comes from Oswocs. It has many diffrent attributes and abitties that the human Drone/Warrior does not, at first, have. Call it the Oswoc Drone. WAVE

(Oppose)--{{SUBST:User:Shade Link/sig}} 15:47, July 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm wondering if AVP:E counts as the first official named appearance of a "Drone Alien" in a licensed work...And just to clarify, these particular Drones, while they bear a resemblance to the original Alien design, are only seen spawning from Oswocs and have unique traits nont seen in other Aliens previously recognized as drones. Is that accurate? IMO, I think that would make the suggested "Oswoc drone" or maybe even "Oswoc spawned drone" a valid title.----CadmiumX99 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 05:03, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. A simpler lifeform would produce a simpler alien: the drone. The idea a drone could be made from a lack of chest space is cool though.TP ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 02:00, July 26, 2011 (UTC)TP

the games may have the fox logo but they are not canon, they just got license to release the game. look, drones are warriors end of. they both come from humans and in the first film it was alive only a day, in aliens they were active for weeks.James cameron explained about it. and before you mention the avp films, i don't count them as having anything to due with the alien franchise other than sharing the creature. too much is different in Avp so it considered another "universe" with differetn rules. 86.177.207.170 09:12, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

&@CadiumX99: Yes the 3 big differences between a Human born Warrior-Drone and a Oswoc born drone is that the Oswoc Drone makes Hive nods, is born from an Oswoc, and uses Mutigenic Acids that cause its targets to both burn and rapidly grow cancerous tumors that sap all the nutrients out the body.
- @TP:Your idea that simpler lifeforms produce simpler Angels is not valid. The creature only takes from the host what will make it a predator to the local species, however it and the Queen can make them evolve in different ways (Aliens: Rogue/Alien vs Predator Extinction/Alien 3) We should name this Drone the Oswoc drone, everyother Alien that has come from other creatures has had the name of that creature added to its name. Predator Alien, Bull Alien, Pilot Alien so on...
  - @86.177.207.170: http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/B001DDBD54/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_2?ie=UTF8&index=2

WAVE ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 01:28, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Drone research

Although it would be easy to say "Drones have domes", "Warriors don't" it's just not universally true. The fact is, sometimes Warriors have domes, simply because the director or artist wants domes on his/her Alien Warriors. The AVP games might just be the official first appearance of a separate Drone Alien class.

As far as I've discovered, a 'Drone Alien' was first conceived in James Cameron's 1983 Aliens treatment (Check "Pre-Production" on Disc 4 of the Quadrilogy). This version was a little different from the domed Giger Alien that popular opinion seems to have labeled as a drone alien. The drones in Cameron's treatment are albino, miniature versions of the adults that help build the hive (not really what an insect drone is known for, but anyway...) They return in Alan Dean Foster's 1986 novelization, still small, tending to the Queen's eggs.

So far, it looks to me like 2003's AVP: Extinction video marks the first time that any distinction was made between a Drone class and other types of Aliens. From Aliens onward, Alec Gillis and Tom Woodruff, Jr. consistently refer to the adults as "Warriors", dome or no dome. Go to Blastr and look for "long lost Cameron interview" where he refers to the domed Giger Alien not as a Drone, but you guessed it, a Warrior. Interestingly, an action figure resembling the original Alien labeled "Warrior Drone" was issued as part of the Alien Resurrection toyline, along with the 'Warrior Alien' version from the 1997 film.

So how could this all make sense "in-story" and hopefully not involve too much speculation? Well, in the very first Aliens comic published by Dark Horse in 1988: Aliens: Theory of Alien Propagation, and three books so far (AVP:Prey, Aliens: Genocide, Aliens: The Female War) characters and authors ocassionally refer to all non-Queen Aliens as 'drones', as in "the Queen and her drones" or describing the Queen Mother Alien's huge guard as "a queen-sized drone." So in a broad sense, any servant of the Queen would be a kind of drone, although evolving and specializing according to the needs of the Hive. Sure it's not exactly like Earth insects, but neither are the Aliens. Besides, real life, non-fiction humans misname stuff all the time. (Case in point: the AVP:E drone has much more in common with the worker bee than the drone bee.

That's why I suggest making this mostly about the Drone from the game, with some background on other uses of 'Drone' in the officially licensed stuff and not fan opinion. Thanks.----CadmiumX99 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 05:28, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Wait a minute...

Soif a drones objective is to work within the hive for the Queen,then How come Warriors always make the hive???24.128.249.115 01:38, May 23, 2012 (UTC)THEBATMAN

P.S. For example The Warriors make a hive in ALIENS, while in ALIEN not so much.Of course this could just be becuase it was an early rough adaption but just a thought.

P.P.S This does NOT include the deleted scene in alien where ripley finds the bodies.

Drone/praetorian

could a drone that can molt into a praetorion instead become a carrier because there a drone?173.228.64.59 21:20, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

In the game avp extinction, praetorians could become carriers, however in that game, praetorians are purebreeds who always become praetorians no matter what host and so don't start as drones or warriors. In some other games, warriors could become praetorians and queens. Some believe that warriors are simply older drones and if that is true (its still debated) then technically a drone could become a praetorian but it would become a warrior first. The Cruentus ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 21:34, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Smooth-headed aliens are NOT Drones

This entire article is wrong. Smooth-headed aliens have never been called Drones in any novel, comic or video game. The novels and video games have given two contradictory explanations of what a Drone is:

Explanation 1: According to the Aliens novelization, the Drone is a small albino alien that moved the eggs around the hive. It hasn't appeared in any of the movies. The Drone only appeared in the video game Aliens versus Predator: Extinction where it was still small, but brown instead of albino. The Aliens Colonial Marines strategy guide also mentions Drones, saying "Drones are the working bees of the caste, so you do not encounter these during your adventure". You do encounter Lurkers in the game, which are identical to the alien from the first movie.

Explanation 2: A Warrior and a Drone is the exact same thing. This is supported by the video game Aliens versus Predator 2, where ridge-headed aliens are called Drones. There are also quite a few novels that talk about Drones, while the comics that they are based on show ridge-headed aliens. Aliens vs Predator: Prey is one example, if I remember correctly. Aliens vs Predator (2010) has a multiplayer skin for a smooth-headed alien called the Warrior Domed. AVP: Evolution also has a smooth-headed alien called the Warrior Resurrection. The Alien Resurrection novelization and the Alien Resurrection action figure from McFarlane Toys identified the aliens in that movie as Warriors.

The idea that smooth-headed aliens are Drones is a fan theory that is not supported by anything. The only Aliens product that protrays smooth-headed aliens and ridge-headed aliens as separate castes is the video game Aliens: Colonial Marines, but smooth-headed aliens are called Lurkers.

Here is a list of articles that need to be renamed and/or edited to correct this error.

Xenomorph XX121 (Alien)

Cloned Xenomorph

Berserker-Alien

Crusher

The Alien (Xenomorph)

Lead Drone Alien

Amanda Ripley-McClaren

Alien: Isolation

Sevastopol

Lead Alien

Amanda+drone.jpg

Sevastopol-drone.jpg

Drone (Sevastopol).jpg

Xenomorph drone caste.png

Drone-AVPEvo.jpg

Drone.jpg

Drone alien isolation.jpg

Alien-drone.jpg

Drone and Ripley BTS.jpg

Drone pic.jpg

Alien-isolation drones=head.jpg

Drone Tail-AVP2004.jpg

Drone tail strike-AVP2004.jpg

I'm shocked that this mistake has become so accepted by Alien fans that it has spread all over this wiki. Is there anyone willing to help me fix all these pages? We're gonna have to decide if all these reference to "Drones" should be changed to "Warriors" or "Lurkers". NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 11:52, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, in AVP: Evolution, the Warrior Resurrection skin is meant to be the Aliens seen in Alien Resurrection. Isn't there a skin called Drone which is basically the Alien seen in Alien?--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 13:37, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

In that case, it would be a yet another explanation of what a Drone is. Except that it's not an explanation at all. According to this game, both Drones and Warriors can be smooth-headed. There's no significant difference between the Drone skin and the Warrior Resurrection skin. The Drone's head may be slightly lighter in color, but that's about it. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 01:13, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

There are actually quite a few differences. The shape of the head, longer back pipes, fin on tail, etc. There are a lot more if you compare the versions from the films too.

As you stated, Aliens: Colonial Marines and its guide make it clear that Warriors and Drones are not the same. I believe we consider video games to be "more canon" than books and comics, and Colonial Marines's canon would override previous games since it is the most recent release.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 01:41, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

The Drone skin and the regular Warrior skin have the same head shape, the same back pipes and the same lack of fin on the tail, so the Drone doesn't have any distinctive features .

Although he Aliens: Colonial Marines strategy guide distinguishes between Drones and Warriors, it says that the aliens from Alien are called Lurkers. Drones are some other type that don't actually appear in the game.

Why would Colonial Marines' canon override previous games? Xenopedia accepts the Yautja interpretation of Predators as canon, even though the Hish interpretation is more recent. Besides, Colonial Marines doesn't actually contradict anything. It's just a difference in terminology. Sometimes Drone refers to a small worker-type alien. Sometimes Drone is just another name for a standard warrior. Sometimes Drone refers to the alien model from the first movie but not any of the later models.NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 02:48, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

ACM should be considered to override previous games purely because it was said to be an official, canon sequel by Fox — I'm not aware of another video game being so endorsed by the studio. As for the Drone-Warrior argument, such a major shift in terminology should probably be discussed to conclusion before any changes are made. As such, I'm reverting the edit to the Predalien (Earth) article until a consensus has been reached. I hope that is acceptable.--Leigh Burne ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 08:08, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

The small worker-type Drone isn't considered canon. That's something that was leftover from an older version of Aliens's script.

The strategy guide actually seems to be based on Xenopedia articles, so it is reasonable to assume the Drone they are referring to is what's in our article, and not the small worker one. Also, there are also noticeable differences between the Drone skin in AVP: Evolution and the Lurker (green on shoulders, different number of fingers, hips, etc.), and it is quite clear that the Alien in Alien is more similar to a Drone.

It might be best to wait for the release of Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report, before we start changing anything, since it will apparently contain "detailed information on the life-cycle of the xenomorph".--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:37, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

What makes you think the strategy guide is based on Xenopedia's articles? I assumed it was a reference to the Alien script/novelization, because they're called "worker bees".

The Drones in AVP: Evolution have 3 fingers on each hand, while the alien in the first movie had 4 fingers on each hand. The Lurker also has 4 fingers on each hand. Of course, this doesn't mean anything since Warriors in AVP Evolution have 3 fingers and Warriors in Colonial Marines have 4 fingers.

I just realized that the alien from the first movie does have one distinctive feature that no other alien type has: human eye sockets underneath the dome. The Lurker also has human eye sockets (at least according to the screenshots on this wiki and the action figures I've seen). NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 02:19, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Does Xenopedia have any sort of guidelines to determine which products supercede which others products when it comes to canon and terminology? If we don't, then Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report isn't really going to help. It's just going to be one more Alien product with ambiguous canon status. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 03:21, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

I think The Cruentus posted somewhere that it seemed to be based on older versions of our articles, but I can't seem to find where that was.

I was talking about the weird double finger thing (probably could have been clearer); the Drone in AVP: Evolution and Alien in Alien have this, but the Lurker doesn't.

It is true that the Alien in Alien and Lurker have this feature, but the Drone in AVP: Evolution and Alien Alien are overall more similar. We also can't see under the Drone's dome, so it may also have eyes.

We don't have any official guidelines, but I think it goes something like this: movies, games, books, comics.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:10, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Then it's probably a good idea to develop some official guidelines. My suggestion is that products with more Amazon.com reviews supersede products with fewer reviews. It's really simple and it fits with Xenopedia's rule that Yautja supersedes Hish and the rule that Aliens: Colonial Marines supersedes other games. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 05:40, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

As Toa says, the movies are where the buck stops on here, although Aliens: Colonial Marines and the new trilogy of novels should be given equal credence as they have been confirmed as part of the films' canon by Fox (as much as I wish they weren't). I always understood that the order following that is as Toa says — games, then novels, then comics. I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable on the extended universe books and comics, so I've no idea what level of conflict there is regarding the information they propose, or whether they can all happily co-exist. But some official set of rules on this, or at least guidelines, would probably be a good idea.

As for the Weyland-Yutani Report, I'm not clear on whether or not it's officially endorsed, beyond Fox simply permitting its release. As you say, it may fall into the same grey area as the Colonial Marines Tech Manual. Hopefully we might get an answer from Fox/the publisher nearer the time of release.--Leigh Burne ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 08:32, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

It's occurred to me that the terms Drone and Warrior are both ambiguous. Drone has been used to describe both smooth-headed aliens (AVP: Evolution) and ridge-headed aliens (Aliens versus Predator 2, various novels). Warrior has been used to describe both smooth-headed aliens (Aliens vs Predator 2010, AVP: Evolution, various action figures) and ridge-headed aliens (Aliens versus Predator: Extinction, Aliens vs Predator 2010, AVP Evolution, various action figures).

Since Aliens: Colonial Marines is canon, we should use the term Lurker for smooth-headed aliens and Soldier for ridge-headed aliens. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 10:55, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

But again, newer releases generally override the canon of previous ones. According to Aliens: Colonial Marines and its guide, Lurkers, Drones, and Warriors are all separate things. AVP: Evolution shows us what a Drone looks like, and it's different than the Lurker. The games also shows us a Warrior again, and it is consistent with its ACM appearance.

Also, I think this might have been what the guide was based on. It says in the first sentence the Drones are "worker bees". A few of its other articles are pretty similar to the guide's too.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:07, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

I think there is an argument that the Aliens in Alien Resurrection are Warriors, however. They've only ever been described as such (even in AVP: Evolution) and it could be some sort of side effect from the cloning process. The Aliens in Alien vs. Predator could also be Warriors as, like the Alien Resurrection ones, they've only ever been called Warriors and the Predators apparently modified them to grow faster, according to one of the commentaries for the film or Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (I can't quite remember).--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:16, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the actual game Aliens: Colonial Marines never mentioned Drones. Only the strategy guide mentions them and nobody ever said the strategy guide is canon. The guide says that the Soldier's "ridged head carapace distinguishes it from the Drones' smooth brain caps". It's likely that the writer of that article was a bit confused and briefly forgot that aliens with smooth brain caps are present in the game under the name Lurker.

Maybe the Drone from AVP Evolution and the Lurker in Colonial Marines have some very slight differences in the shape of the hips and color of the shoulders. But it's pretty clear that both models are based on the alien from the first movie, so they are supposed to be the same thing. Any slight differences are simply because the two games were made by different people.

Xenopedia's articles currently label all smooth-headed aliens as Drones, including the ones in Alien Resurrection and Alien vs Predator. Am I right in saying that you want them to be renamed as Warriors, but you still want the aliens that look like the one from Alien to be called Drones? That's the interpretation that AVP: Evolution uses. The problem with that is it can be hard to tell the difference between a Drone and a smooth-headed Warrior. In AVP: Evolution it may be easy for you to notice the subtle differences because each has a 3D model, but if I showed you a picture of a smooth-headed alien from some random comic book, would you be able to tell me if it's a Drone or a smooth-headed Warrior? NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 04:00, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

I found a few quotes from Aliens: Colonial Marines producer Brian Burleson, in case you're still not convinced that Lurkers are meant to be the aliens from Alien.

"Like the Xeno you saw in Alien has a clear Cranium and is a Lurker type of guy who can menace the player, the Soldier that you saw from Cameron now they're tactical but there's a lot more of them and they're going to be running at you trying to tear your face off..."

"When you look at the Lurker we showed in the demo, that’s kind of the alien from Alien, it’s a lot more of a stalker – it’ll sneak around, hide in corners and jump out at you. The Soldiers are the kind you see in Aliens, there’s a lot more of them and they’re a bit different in the Hive hierarchy, on their own they’re not as effective as they would be in packs." NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 06:10, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

The Drone-Warrior issue is definitely compounded by the fact little effort appears to have been made post-Alien³ to put any logical thought into the design of the creatures. The creatures in Aliens look different because they're older (as stated by Cameron), whereas the one in Alien³ looks different because it comes from a quadruped, but the smooth head ties in nicely to the fact it is a younger specimen once more. Beyond that the designs seemed to have varied for no logical reason whatsoever. It becomes difficult to differentiate.--Leigh Burne ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 07:46, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Every Aliens or Aliens vs Predator game that comes out has its own naming scheme for the different alien types. The upcoming AVP Miniatures Game is no exception. The ridge-headed alien is called an Alien Warrior, the smooth-headed alien is called an Infant Alien Warrior, the Runner is now called a Stalker Alien and the Praetorian is now called a Royal Guard. I don't know what they were thinking when they came up with that. No alien should have the word infant in its name. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 11:50, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

The Guide doesn't necessarily say drones and warriors are seperate, they say you won't encounter them which could simply mean that all Xenomorphs present (that you encounter) are older than a few weeks (warriors) but then games and other expanded material have never been consistent with alien types. As Leigh pointed out above, James Cameron said that Warriors were older Drones. However Net is correct in mentioning that they have also been named Soldiers (the guide mentions this as well), so the naming thing is all over the place.

Leigh again makes a good point in that other than Cameron's word, little to nothing has been said about the Drone-Warrior issue. A:CM was bad in many ways and one way was that it never explained all the different alien castes in the game i.e The Crusher and Spitter. The Cruentus ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 13:55, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

The guide is canon; why wouldn't it be? The Drone and Lurker are fairly easy to tell apart. Just because the Lurker is based on the Alien from the first movie, doesn't mean it's supposed to be it, Burleson quotes' make this pretty clear because he says the Lurker is "kind of" the Alien from Alien, but he then says that the Soldiers are the kind you see in Aliens, without saying "kind of". The smooth-headed Warriors in Alien Resurrection, Alien vs. Predator, and AVP: The Miniatures Game (they all share the same design) are easy to tell apart from the Drone. Also, AVP: Evolution is canon, so it's interpretation of the issue also is.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 19:24, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that the Colonial Marines strategy guide and AVP: Evolution are canon? When Burleson said "kind of" he means that it's not the exact same alien because that alien died in the first movie. I don't agree with your assertion that Evolution's Drone model is closer to the alien from Alien than Colonial Marines' Lurker model.. They both have slight differences from the original. The Lurker model has 4 fingers but doesn't have fused fingers. The Drone model has fused fingers but only has 3 fingers. The similarities far outweigh the differences.

You're probably right about the Colonial Marines strategy guide article being based on the Drone Xenomorph article from Alien Species Wiki. That article's picture of a Drone is actually an alien from the AVP movie, which is usually called a Warrior. So the strategy guide is definitely not referring to the Drones from AVP: Evolution. Furthermore, that wiki article is poorly written. It mixes up the small Drones from Aliens versus Predator: Extinction with the Drones from Aliens versus Predator 2, which are actually ridged Warriors and it also calls the Alien on the Nostromo a Drone. It says that a Warrior can have a smooth head or a ridged head but a Drone always has a smooth head. However, it later says that the Runner in Alien 3 must be a Drone because it has a smooth head. Your entire argument that Drones and Lurkers should be considered separate castes is based on one sentence from the strategy guide and it's pretty clear that the writer didn't know what he was talking about.

In the future, I hope that every comic book article on Xenopedia will have a list of what alien types appear in that article. To accomplish this, we need to be able to distinguish the different alien types when they appear in the comics. In the comics, it's often not possible to see the aliens from every angle, so you may not be able to recognize subtle differences like fused fingers, the number of fingers or the shape of the head. That's why I'm arguing that Drones, Lurkers and smooth-headed Warriors should be considered the same thing. It's always possible to see if the aliens have ridged heads or smooth heads, so that's the only difference that really matters.

I have two idea for how to solve this issue.

1. The Drone article and the Lurker article will be merged together under the name Lurker. References to Drones throughout the wiki will be changed to Lurker. The terms Warrior and Drone will be listed as alternate names for the Lurker along with a note that these names are also sometimes used to refer to the Soldier. The article will discuss variations of the Lurker, such as the number of fingers on each hand, fused fingers, the shape of the head, plantigrade and digitigrade legs, etc. The Warrior article will have its name changed to Soldier. References to the Warriors throughout the wiki will be changed to Soldier. The terms Warrior and Drone will be listed as alternate names for the Soldier along with a note that these names are also sometimes used to refer to the Lurker. The article will discuss variations of the Soldier, such as the number of fingers on each hand, the shape of the head, the type of ridges, the color of the skin, etc. References to smooth-headed Warriors wil be removed from the article, since that is a Lurker variant.

2. The Drone article, the Lurker article and the Warrior article will be merged together under the name Warrior. References to Drones throughout the wiki will be changed to Warrior. The term Drone will be listed as an alternate name for the Warrior that can apply to smooth-headed variant or the ridge-headed variant. The term Lurker will be listed as an alternate name for the Warrior that only applies to the smooth-headed variant. The term Soldier will be listed as an alternate name for the Warrior that only applies to the ridge-headed variant. The article will discuss variations of the Warrior, such as smooth head, ridged head, the number of fingers on each hand, fused fingers, the shape of the head, the color of the skin, plantigrade and digitigrade legs, etc. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 04:12, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Both are official releases; they're canon. If that were the case, why wouldn't Burleson have said that the Soldiers are kind of the Aliens from Aliens? None of them appear in the game; they're all dead. Yes, they both have slight differences from the one in the movie, but the Drone is quite clearly more similar than the Lurker; as far as I know, the finger is the only difference with the Drone, whereas the Lurket has the others that I mentioned. It doesn't matter if he didn't know what he was talking about, it's canon. The only reason I was saying that the guide was based on that article is because you thought they were referring to the Drones from the Aliens novel.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 06:06, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Just because AVP: Evolution was an official release, I'm not sure that necessarily makes it canon. The 1999 AVP game was official in that it was endorsed by Fox, but the plot of its Marine and Alien campaigns can hardly be considered canon because they clash with pretty much everything released since. The comics etc. have also all been endorsed by Fox, but some of them don't fit at all with the canon of the films. When ACM came out, they specifically stated it was a part of the movie canon and an expansion of the official story, same with the new novels. Did they ever do that with Evo?

As for the changes, I'm still of the opinion it would be a good idea to wait for the W-Y Report. Such a vast change needs to be made with complete confidence.--Leigh Burne ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 08:07, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Leigh Burne, I don't think the Weyland-Yutani Report is going to have detailed information on the different alien types. I hope it will, but I don't think it's likely. In S.D. Perry's previous novels Aliens vs Predator: Prey and Aliens vs Predator: War, any adult alien that isn't a queen is called a drone. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 09:05, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Toa Quarax, apart from the number of fingers, the only differences between the Lurker and the Drone you mentioned are green on the shoulders and something about the hips that you didn't elaborate on. So what if it has green shoulders.

The problem with your interpretation is that Warriors can be ridge-headed or smooth-headed, Warriors can be black or brown or even red, Warriors can have a very long cranium or a slightly shorter cranium, Warriors can have any number of fingers, Warriors can have plantigrade legs or digitigrade legs anWd Warriors can have a tail with a fin or a tail with no fin. But you give a Drone green shoulders and it's no longer a Drone, it's a Lurker. That doesn't make much sense.

Although AVP: Evolution uses Drone to describe smooth-headed aliens, Aliens versus Predator 2 uses the word Drone to describe ridge-headed aliens. So do most of the old novels. It doesn't really matter if AVP: Evolution supersedes the other game because Aliens versus Predator 2 still has plenty of fans. If those fans type the word "Drone" into the search engine, they'll be getting something different than what they searched for. That's why we shouldn't use ambiguous terms as article names.

If it's so easy for you to tell the difference between Drones, Lurkers and smooth-headed Warriors, tell me what type of aliens are fighting Superman in this picture. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 09:03, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

"I don't think the Weyland-Yutani Report is going to have detailed information on the different alien types. I hope it will, but I don't think it's likely."

You may well be right, but I still think it would be best to wait and see, as the Xenomorph lifecycle is one of the things it promises to cover.--Leigh Burne ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 09:11, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

I guess that means this argument is being put on hold until September. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 09:17, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in continuing to discuss existing evidence, but I do think it would be best to hold off on actually making any changes until we know more about this book. Given the number of pages that will need to be altered, I think it's only sensible to wait for a release that may well touch on the subject.--Leigh Burne ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 09:55, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Toa, just because something is officially released doesn't necessarily make it canon, all expanded materials such as Games, Novels, Merchandise and Comics have to be licenced otherwise its illegal, a rip-off and/or fanon. Canon and Non-canon can exist in the same franchise and usually do, the difference is simply what has "happened" and what didn't "happen" in the franchise continuity. Guides are very unlikely to be canon for many reasons, first its simply a guide to help with the game its a guide for (and the only game said to be canon in the first place is A:CM) and secondly they are often supremely inaccurate, I have lost count on how many game guides had errors and inaccuracies compared to the games they are supposed to have information on, A:CM guide even has spelling mistakes and I even suspect the some information may (that is may have, not a certainty) been taken from old version of pages from this wiki due to the near exact word use and info we had on the old pages.

The wiki policy is that Movies are canon for certain (unless a new film contradicts another on purpose and with the intent on changing canon) with the expanded materiel/universe being left ambiguous on purpose, we do not say or label them canon or non-canon because of the immense heated arguments that canon wars cause and because little info (often second or third hand) on their status exists, so we allow visitors to have their own view but there are two exceptions, one is that if a comic or game is contradicted by a movie such as Destroying angels (contradicted by Prometheus) and AVP: Extinction (contradicted by AVP-R) then it is non-canon. Secondly if the head honchos say its canon such as the case with A:CM and possibly Alien: Out of the Shadows, then it is to be considered canon.

As Leigh said there is no harm in continuing this discussion at all but remember that opinions are not cause for article changes, we need facts and sources, also remember to keep a cool head and always stay civil. The Cruentus ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 12:39, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

This is the hips thing I was talking about:

The Drone in AVP: Evolution, Alien and Alien: Isolation Aliens don't have that.

That's because the guide makes it clear Drones and Lurkers are different, and those are the only known differences.

It doesn't really matter how many fans Aliens versus Predator 2 has, ACM's canon overrides it.

It doesn't matter if it's hard to tell them apart in some comics. Even if the comics stated what a Lurker, a Drone, and a Warrior were, it wouldn't matter anymore due to ACM and its guide.

They never did endorse AVP: Evolution, but it doesn't contradict this films or ACM, and neither does the guide.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 19:14, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

The Cruentus has already told you that although Colonial Marines is canon, the strategy guide isn't. They are not the same thing. The guide wasn't even made by the same company that made the game. Besides, the strategy guide is not talking about the Drone from AVP: Evolution. The picture on the Drone article is from the AVP movie.

It DOES matter if it's hard to tell them apart in the comics. Every comic book page on Xenopedia should have a list of what alien types appear in that comic. That's what I intend to do for this wiki. And I can only do that if it's possible to tell them apart.

This discussion has grown very long and it may be hard for readers to follow. After the Weyland-Yutani Report is released, I'll be posting a summary of my argument's main points. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 01:48, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

No, the guide is canon; it doesn't contradict the films and it doesn't condradict ACM. It doesn't matter if they based it on the article with a picture of the AVP Alien. The guide does not state that the AVP Aliens are Drones and, according to AVP: Evolution and AVP: The Miniatures Game, they aren't, they're Warriors (or Infant Warriors).

No, it doesn't matter. Just because sometimes we can't tell them apart, it doesn't mean they are the same thing. I'm afraid such a list would be impossible with the canon information we have now.

I apologize if I edited anyone's text in any way. Editing on a mobile sucks.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:58, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

If you want to say something is canon, you have to provide evidence. Saying it doesn't contradict the films or the game is not enough. Here is the evidence that the game is canon.

Your theory is based on the assumption that the A:CM strategy guide is referring to the Drones from AVP: Evolution. But we don't know that. It could be referring to the Drones from Aliens versus Predator: Extinction, for all we know.

A list of alien types appearing in each comic IS possible with the canon information we have now. It's only impossible under your personal theory. Movies and video games are only a small fraction of the AVP universe. Most of the universe consists of comic books, so listing the alien types appearing in each comic is a worthwhile thing to do. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 05:44, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is enough. We don't need Fox telling everyone that something is canon to consider it canon.

It doesn't matter if they were talking about the Drones from Extinction. Those are non-canon now.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 19:09, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome to accept the strategy guide and AVP: Evolution as part of your personal canon, but personal canon carries no weight in an argument. NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 00:20, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

They're not part of my "personal canon", they are canon.--Toa Quarax ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 01:29, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Differences

Like on the Praetorian page, I've decided to make a page on differences between the Lurker caste and the Drone caste.

Despite them being almost the same thing; Domed skulls, similar design, etc, I've decided to list the differences.

The differences are:

Colour- Lurkers are a blacky-grey colour with a slight green tint, while the Drones are a blacky-blue colour.

Dome shape- Lurkers have a skull under it (yes I know the Alien had one) and some have spikes coming out of their heads, Drones just have domes.

If I think of anything else I'll post it up under this heading. Thanks.

Deathblade 100 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 01:07, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Drone/Warrior

The Drone/Warrior distinction that we currently adopt on this wiki states that Drones are young, smooth-headed Aliens while Warriors are the older, ridge-headed variety. However, I'm not altogether convinced this is accurate and it seems likely that the terms Drone and Warrior are fully interchangeable in franchise media. I therefore think there's an argument for merging the Drone and Warrior pages under whichever of the two terms is more commonplace (I suspect Warrior). As this would constitute a major change on the Wiki affecting a lot of pages it should really be discussed thoroughly before any alterations are made.

I can see that the issue has been discussed before on this page with no definite consensus, but it couldn't hurt to bring the matter up again. I suggest that I make make a post here and on the Warrior talk page to this effect and we can go from there.-- LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 09:43, March 24, 2016 (UTC)

Cameron agreed that this was the case (that warrior were simply older xenos) however films like Avpr contradict this but then that film didn't exactly do the lore or continuity any favors. Merging them would make the page too long. Warriors have been called Soldiers too. 212.219.240.75 11:29, March 31, 2016 (UTC)

Whatever conclusion you all come to, my opinion staunchly is they should remain separate. Maybe we just mention new information says their the same, contradicting the old information.Werebereus - ಠ_ಠ 00:26, May 24, 2016 (UTC)

If new information says they're the same, then we should conform to that new information, because it's the most up-to-date source we have. As I pointed out on your talk page, Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report does say both types are the same, and says they're all called Drones. As the names Drone and Warrior have been used so interchangeably in the past, it really doesn't contradict anything to merge them. You yourself have been incredibly adamant that the Aliens in Alien vs. Predator are Warriors, even though, by this Wiki's current definitions, they should be called Drones.--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 09:23, May 24, 2016 (UTC)

Technically they are the same, they are both adult Aliens but the word warriors/soldiers has been typically used to described the ridged-head Aliens which is accepted as being more mature drones, I vote we keep them seperate since there is plenty of information to keep their pages separate. The behind the scenes of AVP have ADI calling the Aliens Warriors and Warriors have been called Drones in other media, so they are interchangable but for the purpose of keeping things tidy and orderly, the pages should remain seperately. On another note, even in Aliens there were Warriors that looked different from eachother as some had arm protusion of some kind. --

The Cruentus^(Talk) 10:38, May 24, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Cruentus.Werebereus - ಠ_ಠ 06:51, May 25, 2016 (UTC)

My problem with keeping things as they are is that it's wrong. As I pointed out, the terms have been used interchangeably and therefore don't exclusively refer to one or the other. Now the W-Y Report calls both types variations of the common adult Drone. So us saying there is a clear definition between the two, that dome-head Aliens are Drones and ridge-head Aliens are Warriors, is inaccurate. Werebus has already been very vocal that the Aliens in Alien vs. Predator are Warriors, yet according to this Wiki's definitions they should be referred to as Drones.

We can't keep saying Drones and Warriors are two distinct types of Alien, as we do currently, because evidence is showing that that is simply wrong. This essentially leaves us two options that I can see:

1: We keep the two pages, but alter them to point out the names are interchangeable and add information about dome-head variants to the Warrior page and ridge-head variants to the Drone page. To me, this would be convoluted and confusing. We'd have two pages that basically say "this type of Alien is called this but it can also be called this, just like this other type of Alien". How are people supposed to know when an Alien is a Drone and when it's a Warrior if the names can refer to either? It would also require the inclusion of a lot of duplicated information across the two articles, meaning we'd basically have two lengthy pages that more or less say the same thing.

2: Alternatively, we merge them, and list the two types (dome- and ridge-head) under different sections on the same page. Not only would this be a simpler and more coherent solution, it would be far more accurate given the sources we have. Again, I propose we use the title Drone for the page as that's the term the W-Y Report uses, with Warrior as a redirect, but there's an argument for using Warrior as the page name as it's probably the most widely-used name.

If anyone can think of any other solutions to this problem then feel free to add them. But leaving things as they are would be inaccurate.--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 10:20, May 25, 2016 (UTC)

But no one is necessarily saying they are two different Alien types, as I have said Warriors are merely older Drones, they ARE Drones but for clarification, warriors or soldiers is used for the Ridged-headed, and their overall behavior is different enough to warrant information. Merging means stretching the page quite a lot. A solution would be tabs but no one else has looked for ones that would work well in this wiki. I tried once but there was problems with naming the tabs if I recall. --

The Cruentus^(Talk) 19:38, May 30, 2016 (UTC)

The Warriors being older Drones argument is somewhat nullified by Requiem, in which the Aliens only live for a matter of 24 hours or so and yet they still have ridged heads. I don't think the merge would cause too much extra info to be added. What I might do when I get the chance is mock up a test page somewhere so we can see how it might work out.--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 11:32, June 1, 2016 (UTC)

Not necessarily, just a contradiction caused by design choices, at least Cameron explained about the Warriors in Aliens. I do agree that the terms describe the same Alien, they are interchangeable. In AVP2 I believe the ridged Aliens are called drones and in the first AVP (the film) ADI called them warriors but there are significant behavior differences between them, at least enough to have different information describe them individually. I think we need to try tabs, the page can be merged then whislt keep all the information about the two intact. --

The Cruentus^(Talk) 16:20, June 3, 2016 (UTC)

Drone/Warrior Amalgamated Page

Right, after much faffing about (and finally getting a proper desktop computer at home once more) I have knocked up an example page that combines our current Drone and Warrior articles into a single page. It's not entirely done (I haven't trawled through the Trivia sections yet, and the Galleries will need merging) but it gives you a basic idea of how a merged article might work, and to be honest, its a lot neater and less overcrowded than I expected it to be. I invite those participating in this debate to have a look.

You can find it here.

Please share your thoughts on it, especially if you have any suggestions as to how it might be improved. One addition I'm personally thinking of making is a Behind the Scenes section that discusses the complicated nature of the caste's name, exactly as we have discussed here, but I haven't got around to writing it yet. I do think that would help justify the new merged stance, should we decide to go with it.-- LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 20:41, June 29, 2016 (UTC)

I think we should have tabs on it, so we can place appearance and behavior etc in difference spaces while keeping it neater. -- The Cruentus^(Talk) 13:37, July 7, 2016 (UTC)

I'll have to look into tabs. Respectfully though, I really do think we need to move away from the idea that there's a definite distinction between the two. What evidence is there to actually back that up?--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 07:50, July 8, 2016 (UTC)

Like I said before my friend, I am not saying they are different castes or whatever, they are one and the same, just at different maturation levels. Let us see what we can do with the test page and if it works, we will do the merge but back ups of the individual pages should be created just in case. I think I can get some working tabs, may take some time depending on how long I have to wait to contact the necessary people. --

The Cruentus^(Talk) 08:08, July 8, 2016 (UTC)

And the award for latest ever reply goes to... :P

The trouble is, Requiem (eugh) totally undoes the ageing theory. The Aliens in that are only recently born and yet all of them have ridged heads. You mentioned behind the scenes design choices earlier — but at the end of the day, however it came to be that way, the film shows us that even "young" Drones can have ridged heads, and the films are basically gospel as far as the Wiki goes (as I'm sure you know). On top of which, Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report specifically says both types are just variations of Drone, without making any mention of age being a factor. Did you ever have any luck with tabs? As for backups, they would automatically be stored in the page histories, so it shouldn't be a problem.--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 09:03, October 13, 2016 (UTC)

"Warrior" Xenomorph Note

Should it be noted somewhere (the Drone vs. Warrior section, after "In essence, the two terms are entirely interchangeable." seems a good spot) that most expanded universe material (the purportedly canon Aliens: Colonial Marines, the Alien vs. Predator games, the Soldiers Inc. crossover, the official toys, etc.) still refer to the ridged-headed Xenomorphs as Warriors (or Soldiers in the case of A:CM) and generally portray them as being stronger than the smooth-headed Drones? Ascha'Vovina ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 11:33, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

By the same token, there are numerous sources that label ridge-headed Aliens Drones (e.g. Aliens versus Predator 2 and many of the early novels that adapt Aliens comics). Likewise, I'm not sure the idea they're "generally" portrayed as being stronger than smooth-headed Aliens is true; in Alien: Isolation the Drone is essentially indestructible while Soldiers in Aliens: Colonial Marines are little more than canon fodder.--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 14:39, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps the addendum "recent" should be added to "most expanded universe material still refers to the smooth-headed Xenomorphs as Drones and ridge-headed Xenomorphs as Warriors/Soldiers", then? The current toyline still does so, at least. I suspect that the reason the smooth-headed Xenomorph in Isolation was portrayed as being more powerful than the ridged-headed Xenomorphs in Colonial Marines was because Isolation wanted to recreate the tension and terror of the original Alien and being able to kill the Xenomorph would take away from that, while Colonial Marines hews closer to Aliens. Plus, in the former you play as a mechanic and in the latter as a heavily-armed soldier, which I recall the devs of Isolation stating as one of the reasons they made the Xenomorphs invulnerable. Funnily enough, Soldiers Inc. does the opposite and portrays the "Drone" based off the specimen from Alien as being stronger than the "Warrior" based off the specimens from Aliens. Ascha'Vovina ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 15:55, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

Sorry it's been taking me a while to reply to you; you'd think being at home all day during lockdown I'd have more time to be on here, but for whatever reason it's just not working out that way!

"Perhaps the addendum "recent" should be added to "most expanded universe material still refers to the smooth-headed Xenomorphs as Drones and ridge-headed Xenomorphs as Warriors/Soldiers", then?"

I'm not sure that holds true either, because it's only recent media that has clarified they are one and the same (the Weyland-Yutnai Report being the most obvious example). Before that, it was merely a case of the names being used inconsistently, but recent books have explicitly stated both head types are merely Drones, and that Warrior is an alternative name.

As I said, I can think of plenty of cases that support Warriors being a distinct caste, and plenty of cases that don't; the fact remains recent official sources state there's no difference, which actually makes sense of the prior inconsistency. At the end of the day, there is already a note in the Drove vs. Warrior section mentioning how the perceived distinction persists (it's at the start of the very paragraph you fist suggested adding to), which I think covers the situation adequately.--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 08:52, May 15, 2020 (UTC)

Page Merge

Why were the pages merged? These are 2 separate castes and several sources, namely The Role Playing Game, makes this evident. The pages should be un-merged immediately.Jaxterhammer ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 00:25, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

Lol y'know what? Nevermind.Jaxterhammer ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 00:39, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

This merge has been proposed for some time (it was clearly flagged at the top of both articles prior to it happening) and has been discussed at length on this very page. The distinction between the two has never been clear-cut, there have always been sources that contradict it, and recent official media (e.g. Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report) has specifically stated both head-types are simply Drones.

The RPG does separate them out, and this may need to be dealt with, but there was definite evidence supporting the merge.--

LEIGH BURNE^(Talk) 09:15, May 27, 2020 (UTC)

The RPG also says that Drones and Lurkers are the same thing (Core Rulebook page 308), which is what I've said all along. --NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 06:37, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

From what I've heard, the RPG treats everything that's been established in the series as canon, no matter how contradictory it is. Xenomorphs were created by Engineers? Canon. Xenomorphs evolved on Xenomorph Prime? Canon. Xenomorphs created by David? Canon. And that's its prerogative as an RPG (giving the players choices how to build the setting), but as such I don't know how seriously we should be taking what it says. Ascha'Vovina ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 07:03, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Where does the RPG talk about Predators and Xenomorph Prime? I must've missed that part. --NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 07:12, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Ehh, maybe it doesn't mention Predators, but it talks about Xenomorph Prime on Pages 279 - 281, at least according to this wiki. Ascha'Vovina ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 08:01, September 29, 2020 (UTC)

Core Rulebook page 281 says G-435 is the closest to a home world one is likely to find for p.praepotens. While they aren’t from here, they definitely made it their own. Whether they arrived via intentional seeding, an experiment gone amuck, or just by way of a crashed starship, the aliens here are stronger and quicker than those found off-world. So it never says they evolved there and never refers to the planet as "Xenomorph Prime". --NetSpiker ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 08:14, September 29, 2020 (UTC)