Good article, but the image should be from one of his AvP appearances.--- CadmiumX99 18:49, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
By that, I mean from officially licensed material like the comics, not the fan film. :)--CadmiumX99 19:20, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Done. But I don't like it! To the people in charge of Aliens vs Predator: Please, in the name of all that is good and holy, do not make this canon! A few "what if" versus stories are fine, but don't blend them together or so help me I will mover to Indonesia and never watch anything you make ever again!--LastJedi1515 (talk) 22:25, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
- It is canon and will remain canon. That is how things are, whether you like it or not... :( - 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 23:22, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Technically it's an intercompany crossover between Dark Horse comics and DC, officially licensed but non-canon. Apparently, the DCU or its Elseworlds equivalent has its own xenos and Predators! Don't panic LJ! Here's a good example: Just check out Indiana Jones at the Star Wars Wiki. (Remember that Star Wars Tales story?) Anyway I created a non-canon template and renamed the cat non-canon articles using Wookieepedia as a guide. .
Since the Predators often seem to show up in the Company-run world established by the "Alien"-series, one way to look at Xenopedia and the AVPU is as the "Alien: Expanded Universe". Just about every officially licensed "Alien", "Predator" or "Alien vs. Predator" film, novel, comic, or game can be considered part of the same universe that began with the Dark Horse comics and appeared onscreen with the 2004 film, (complete with obvious references to previous "Alien" films).
"Non-canon" would include anything not officially licensed such as fanon, fan-films and artwork and licensed appearances of the Aliens and Predators in other fictional universes like the DC universe, Magnus: Robot Fighter, Top Cow, and (my personal fave) the Terminator.
Finally, just naming our sources of information would clear up a lot of confusion. At any rate, check out the links!---CadmiumX99 04:32, April 14, 2010 (UTC).
- While we're on it, who decides what comics are canon or not? Star Wars has a fellow named Leland Chee, but all AVP has is 20th Century Fox. Without an all-powerful canon master, all we have is assumption.--LastJedi1515 (talk) 22:39, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
- For the purposes of Xenopedia, anything officially licensed under the Alien(s), Predator, and AvP name (excluding intercompany crossovers and fan-created media) could be considered "canon". Could there be varying levels of canon? Sure. My point is that we have more than vague assumptions, we have past experience to rely on (check out the links above) and we can build a consensus as to which comics are part of Alien Expanded Universe/AVPU/Xenopedia canon/continuity. By the way, there's an interesting discussion about canon here.----CadmiumX99 04:02, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
- P.S. Just to be clear, I'm pretty sure that the Batman stories are set in the DCU or some version of it, not what we know as the AVPU. Cancel your flight, LJ!-------CadmiumX99 04:02, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
How do we know this is non-canon? The Predator crossovers in comics like Ghost, X, Agents of Law and Motorhead are canon. The DC crossovers seem to have some kind of canon to each other. Both Superman and Batman mention previous encounters with them in the Superman/Batman vs. Alien/Predator comic. Just because this might not be canon in the mainstream DC universe doesn't mean that it isn't canon in the AvP universe. (Has a multiverse ever been mentioned in the AvP universe?) Zakor1138 01:31, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
- Check this out, Zakor:
- "Much as DC's heroes might wish otherwise, JLA/Predator is no Elseworlds tale. 'This does fall within the DC Universe,' says (writer) Ostrander. 'It may not be spot-on current continuity, but it's certainly recent DC continuity, and it's a universe in which the Predators have already attacked Superman and Batman [in earlier mini-series]."---From Mania.com. John Ostrander also did the Predator/Magnus, Robot Fighter crossover for Valiant. And don't forget Tarzan vs. Predator and TopCow's Witchblade/Darkness/Predator/Aliens.
- The Predators appearing in the Dark Horse Heroes line (AKA Comic's Greatest World, which includes X, Ghost, Agents of LAW, etc.) have a direct impact, killing a major character in continuity. So in that sense, the Dark Horse Heroes version of the Predators is definitely canon for that universe.
- Fighting dangerous alien species is nothing new for Batman or Superman. In nearly every fictional universe that's home to a superhero, chances are there's an alien menace to be conquered. That's part of the reason why Aliens and Predators fit so seemlessly into the DC, Valiant, TopCow and Dark Horse Heroes universes. Their presence among superheroes doesn't diminish the willing suspension of disbelief necessary to enjoy a work of fiction. By comparison, the Alien/Predator/AVP series has its roots in science fiction/horror which relies a little bit more on realism and less of the fantastic in order to seem believable.
- I do like your idea of an AvP multiverse, however I think the locations and characters from the movies and the related materials should be distinguished from the crossovers, not because of quality (the Batman/Predator crossover always gets high marks) but for simplicity's sake. Also, placing info in the right context provides a clearer point of departure, making the crossover material more rewarding for the reader. Make sure you say hi to User:SpaceWuss and see what he has to say about the subject. Cheers---CadmiumX99 05:30, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
DEFINITELY not canon
Okay. Let's all just slow down here for a second.
First let me say that Aliens or Predator crossovers with other licensed material/franchises should not be considered "canonical" to the individual Alien or Predator franchises, or the joint Aliens vs. Predator franchise for a very simple and straightforward reason: That being that any appearance or even mention of said characters in an Alien, Predator, or AVP story/title/series can ONLY be done on a CASE-BY-CASE basis, with the INDIVIDUAL APPROVAL, EACH TIME, from the license holders/owners of those characters, and vice versa. Alien, Predator and AVP characters can only appear in those other licenses on a case-by-case basis with express approval from the owners of the joint Alien/Predator/AVP franchises.
What that means is that it's NOT a normal thing that can happen in any/every Aliens, Predator or AVP story that Batman, Superman or whoever can just be walking around, or that they can even be mentioned as being part of the ongoing fictional history of the joint Aliens/Predator/AVP franchise universe. It's a once in a while thing, since the characters are owned by different people who have not married them to Aliens/Predator/AVP. The Aliens/Predator/AVP universe literally does not have the RIGHT to include Batman, Superman, or others as a regular part of their universe.
Notice that the stories that these external cross-overs happen in are always self-contained stories that are not refernced in other, regular Aliens/Predator/AVP stories as part of the history. (To the extent that ANY cross-referencing of other stories happens in any Aliens, Predator or AVP story to BEGIN WITH! Batman being "canon"? How about Aliens and Predator being canon to each other? Or to their comics? How about Predator: Dark River being "canon" to Predator: anything else?, or Aliens: Labirynth being canon to Predator: Anything? And don't even get me started on that gaudy Xenogensis mess. But more on that sort of thing later.)
This is different, mind you, from a CAMEO appearance or a little tribute image snuck in to a piece of artwork in the middle of a story. (And I'm sure we're all familiar with the cameo images snuck in to that panel of the Predator trophy room scene in that issue of Aliens/Predator: Deadliest of the Species which features some skulls bearing the likeness of a few DC and Marvel characters, specifically Cyclops, Batman and Magneto. But that's just an homage/tribute/easter egg snuck in by the artist. And it clearly doesn't fit in to the history of those characters OR of any cross-over stories, since in none of the Batman vs. Predator stories does a Predator ever actually kill Batman, and since in the regular ongoing Batman and X-men comics the characters are alive and well and have never met a Predator.) (And speaking of cameos, there's another more recent one that's rather fun, too, with the Predator/Yautja Sinestro snuck in to the Sinestro Corps War story battle scenes in issues of Green Lantern recently.)
When a cross-over miniseries or one shot happens it basically creates a new little mini-franchise/imprint that only exists for the duration of the cross-over event/title. Batman vs. Predator exists in the universe of Batman vs. Predator, because legally speaking that's just how it has to be. And the ongoing continuity of both titles backs that up by not making any mention to the characters meeting in any other of their stories, and by destinctly NOT merging the worlds of the two characters together.
Otherwise in every Predator miniseries we'd see the DC comics world, which is familiar to any regular reader of DC comics. (Or the image comics world, or even the dark horse superheroes world.) With many superheroes around, or at least being mentioned as normal. But we don't.
Now, the irony of all this, of course, is that a cameo CAN grow into something more, and that it IS possible to truly merge two franchises together, merging their continuity into one; and that the best example of that ever done in the history of recent science-fiction franchises is, of course, Aliens vs. Predator itself. But that was done very meticulously and there is no debate about it. The license for producing Aliens content was acquired by Dark Horse. The license for producing Predator content was acquired by Dark Horse. And then permission to permanently merge the two properties into one was recieved, and a new joint-license was created for the new joint franchise.
Until that happens with Batman and Predator, it is safe to say that the Batman vs. Predator and Batman vs. Aliens stories exist in separate continuities from the AVP universe and the DC universe. Now, perhaps those stories all exist in the same universe as each other, but that is something to be derived by reading each series and seeing if they refer to each other, or if they simply start fresh each time.
The other possiblity, of course, is that a cameo or one-off crossover happens, but it DOES start to be referenced in the regular continuity works of a series. But that has yet to happen with regard to all of these various Aliens/Predator crossovers with other titles. You don't see mention of Robocop or OCP in the regular Alien or Predator or AVP comics. You don't see mention of Terminators or Skynet in them. You don't see mention of Witchblade, or Darkness, or Ghost, or well, you get the idea.
Of course, from movie series to movie series, you never saw any mention of each other from one franchise to the other, either, until Dark Horse started to work to bring things together. At which point you saw the Alien skull in Predator 2 (at that point simply a cameo). And then you saw Charles Weyland and Weyland Industries and Predators and Aliens all together in the first AVP movie. But still, they don't spend a lot of time cross-referencing things in those films. And you can tell the filmmakers don't always really bother themselves too much with making sure they're existing in the same universe with all the same rules and history as the other films in either of the other two franchises. And barely any one at all in the film worlds pays attention to previous events and people from the earlier comics and novels. I think people should be more concerned with trying to get the ACTUAL franchise material to be thought of as "canonical" than the status of external franchise cross-vers.
IF such an external crossover--any of them--gains enough momentum that it starts to be referenced in enough other ongoing main-franchise stories, then it could be said to start becoming "canon" or something like it. The closest contender would be Batman, with the most cross-over chalked up to date. But after reviewing the background of the situation, that is clearly not what is going on with Batman or any of these various external cross-overs. It is much more clearly what I have already described. They exist, if at all, in their own little realities.--SpaceWuss 04:24, July 14, 2010 (UTC)